24 replies to this topic

[dan fahy]

how long would it take a competent user to, draw up the matching house plans, in the system entitled "2 storey 01 - 2320 sf" house. excluding site plan.

[Keith Almond]

That's a question almost like how long is a piece of string. Everyone draws differently, and puts different amounts of detail on the drawing. Do you mean as a sketch design, or as a complete blueprint?

[randolph cohn]

if you want an exact copy of the plans, 

why not do a batch print of the set (use review if you have it)

but

make sure you get permission from softplan first if you plan on doing anything with them.

 

note:  doing a batch print of all the drawings shouldn't take longer than setting up the printer and press "OK".

same as "how long is a piece of string" ?

 

WARNING / WARNING / WARNING !   get permission from softplan or at least ask keith almond

 

dan !

i'm confused > what exactly do you want to do with a complete set of con docs ?

[Tom Rogers]

Or are you just using that as an example to gauge time for a project?  To get exactly like it is shown.  no fancy interior 3D; no material list, etc.? 

[randolph cohn]

I think if you had 10 people do it by the time,  you'd have 10 different times,

and most likely, the slower time and faster time would have a large gap between them.

that's why I feel we need to use a "fixed fee" for a fair price and also there would

be no surprises. 

some people use a square foot cost but we don't do that around here so i'm not familiar with it

in the san francisco bay area.  or I haven't heard of anyone doing it that way around here.

 

a newbie would most likely be much slower than an advanced users and

if you charged the same hourly rate,

it wouldn't be fair to your client.

[dan fahy]

yes tom, I am just using that as an example to gauge time for a project, to figure out what would be an appropriate amount to charge.

[Tom Rogers]

For starting I would agree with Randy.  Do a square footage price.  You will be slower in the beginning but you will be comparable with people in your area.  For the amount of time you put into it you wont make a lot of $/hr but the more you use it the quicker you will become.  For speaking purposes I still tell people it will take me 40 hours for a complete set of plans (this is what I can do a hand drawn set for 25 years ago) but it gives me the week to do and if I get it done in 1/2 week great but the price is always the same (i.e. $1/s.f.)

[Keith Almond]

Like Tom, we charge a square footage price. When people ask how long it's going to take to get their plans, We tell people that there's between 25 and 40 hours solid work in a complete plan set, depending on how complex they are, so don't expect them to be ready tomorrow.

[Sam Morgan]

When people ask me how long it will take I tell them it depends on them as much as me.  If they don't respond to revisions, questions, etc quickly...its going to take a heck of a long time.  Most plans I can have done in a week or two depending on complexity.  I'm working on a 15,000 s/f home right now that I'm almost 18 months into...because the owners disappear for months then suddenly start asking for changes.

[randolph cohn]

wow!

i don't know how all of you can be so fast in completing a set of plans.

i'll be hiring you when I get more work.

leave your email address.

 

around here in the san francisco bay area, (i'm in marin county, ca)

 we need soils engineers, structural / civil engineers,

surveyors and lots of meetings with building dept, planning dept, home owners associations,

architectural review committees, planning committee meeting and who knows what else

they'll throw at us.

 

and we get to deal with all the nice people here in marin.

(we really do have some nice people  -  also known at the "ME PEOPLE")

 

I don't keep hourly records any more and charge a "FLAT FEE"

I know approximately what a set of plans will take me from many decades of designing.

 

not sure how much time softplan saves me from doing them on the board.

 

note:

I give my clients a lot more since i've been using cad than I did before.

I smother them with 3d renderings,  usually colored renderings.

 

note:

I send them jpgs and pdfs and let them do their own printing.

 

NOTE: 

I also have them set up a charge account at the local reproduction company

and email the repro company the pdfs with the instructions and files

and also how many sets and where to send the sets.

btw

I gave my wide format plotter to an architect friend of mine,

wasn't worth using and that was after I spent over $600 having it fixed.

I used to spend a day doing the large print sets.

 

now it take a few minutes to email them and be done with them.

 

I do have my own 11x17 printer when needed.

[PAUL LADNER]

As a build-design company I do mostly remodels, additions, attic/ garage and basement conversions.  Square foot price would be useless for me because there's always some remodeling/ redesign to be done of areas contiguous with the main area under consideration. From my experience I have found that bringing the project to the point where it's ready for permit submission costs about 10% of the final construction budget (plus or minus 2% depending on the complexity of the job).  

 

That includes careful evaluation of the site; as-built drawings; design development; and full construction drawings.   The construction drawings include the usual floor plans, sections and exterior elevations.  But it also includes preliminary structural design, framing details, interior elevations, a healthy dose of detail drawings, door & window specs, electrical/ plumbing & mechanical plans, lighting design; plus consults with the S.E., Title 24 folks, and local planning department previews.  

So on a $100K construction budget that's about 125 hours of work for a custom project.  So I'm wondering what kind of projects you do where that level of detail can be accomplished in 40 hours. 

[Randy McLain]

Hey Guys, New here but not to softplan.  Great topic!  I'm a builders designer.  In our community the drawings required for custom homes and renovations are not as stringent as it seems as some of your areas.  I can complete a set of drawings in about 50hrs.  We charge by SF.  Hope I'm not cheating myself. The customer gets Foundation, Floor, Elevations, Roof and cross sections as needed.

 

I do no plumbing, HVAC, or electrical drawings.  Just the way its done here for 1800SF - 6000SF homes that we are involved with.  If I'm the builder I just roll into our price.  Otherwise I charge the customer about 1.5% of estimated costs. Curious what you think?

[Keith Almond]

I have to say that we don't provide anywhere near the level of detail that you seem to do in California.

 

Typically we do all the preliminary sketch designs that are necessary. Once the design is finalised, we provide all Floor Plans, Elevations, Sections, Structural Design as per code (anything outside the O.B.C. will be by Structural Engineer), Details as necessary and 3D views, with full construction specification. We don't do interior elevations normally, but may provide some interior 3D views depending on the project. Enough to obtain a Building Permit. Most municipalities in Ontario require Trusses to be designed by the manufacturer. H.V.A.C. design MUST be by a certified H.R.A.I. designer. Drawings will show all plumbing fixtures, but pipe layouts are the responsibility of the Plumbing Contractor. Basic electrical layout is included.

 

We provide full blueprints only. The responsibility for obtaining permits and Contractor quotations rests with the customer.

 

We provide blueprints for ANYTHING that requires a building permit. From Decks to New Homes and Small Non-Residential Buildings. All projects are charged by the square foot, which varies depending on the project - i.e a deck or a home etc.

[D M]

How long is a piece of string .. ?

 

Always twice the distance from the middle to one end.

[Mike Downing]

I'm with Randy on this.

 

We here in CA have to put a lot of detail on our plan sets. Or, as I like to put it, The Building and Planning departments want us to put the entire code on the plans. It's almost as if you don't need any expertise and experience as a contractor to build a house these days. They require either details or code references for almost every aspect of the building process. It's is very time consuming. I had spent many hours setting up my speed notes and symbols only to have everything change dramatically in 2013 to the point that I had to redo them again.

 

Also I feel that for each project the speed notes are great but each customer should have to pay for the equivalent amount of time that it would have taken if I had to draw them for each project.

 

Lastly I've found that drawing on CAD is not necessarily much faster initially but the corrections and change are much faster, without the eraser bits all over the place.

[Keith Almond]

Lastly I've found that drawing on CAD is not necessarily much faster initially but the corrections and change are much faster, without the eraser bits all over the place.

 

Couldn't agree more! Some customers seem to think that because you use CAD, you can just press a couple of buttons and have it spit out a complete design. I had a customer last week who approved the sketches, and gave me the go ahead for complete blueprints at 10.30 a.m. and asked if he could pick the blueprints up that afternoon. He was amazed when I told him that they wouldn't be ready until Wednesday at the earliest, and even more stunned when I told him the fee would be $800.00. He seemed to think that both were excessive for a couple of hours work!

[Sam Morgan]

Keith,

 

What kind of project were you doing that was $800 and the customer thought it was excessive?   That would be a typical basement job for me here in utah....and I would be lucky to have a full day or maybe 2 in it.  I try to set realistic time frames with clients up front but they don't need to know how fast I can do things.  I've had plenty of homes that I've breezed through in 4-5 days because clients knew exactly what they want.  I DON'T give discounts because one project was easier than another!!!     

[Keith Almond]

It was a 2800 ft² storage garage/workshop with office, store room and mechanical room. We max. our garage blueprints out at $800.00.

 

Sorry - edited to 2800 ft² - Started out as 30' x 70' and at the end of the sketch designs ended up as 40' x 70'.

[Sam Morgan]

You are too kind!     I wouldn't do full construction documents on a project like that at that price.  Would be much closer to $2,000 for that.   And I wouldn't have it done before wednesday either!!!  

[PAUL LADNER]

I’d like to put in my two cents about building plans from a builder’s point of view.  I was asked to bid on a complete house renovation in Fairfax, CA, in Marin County.  The owners, a young couple, had a set of plans from a local architect.  It was complete enough to get preliminary approval by the building/planning  department, and so the owners thought they had a full set of plans.  But from my point of view, it was completely inadequate to bid on without extra design work.  There were no kitchen or bathroom elevations, or carpentry details for the deck, gables or soffits. And practically no notes on finishes.

 

I told them that if they wanted competitive bids that compared apples to apples, they were going to need some more design work.  For me to give a reliable bid on the kitchen, for example, I would wind up doing the extra design work of cabinet elevations and specifications – and I wasn’t planning on doing that without getting paid for it. They thought I was crazy and figured they’d already paid for building plans. 

 

My point here is that I feel the architect did them a disservice.  They obviously shopped around for low bid plans – and they got what they paid for.  I wished them good luck and bid my adieu.  I heard through the grape vine that they’d had a huge problem with the contractor that bought into that mess.  The job, which should have taken 5 or 6 months was going onto a year and was way over the original price - most likely with change orders.  It might have been an incompetent contractor, but I place a chunk of the blame on the architect who sold them a bill of goods. 

 

Or it’s easy to blame the young couple - but what did they know? It was the architect’s responsibility to educate and guide his clients, and to provide plans that were really up to snuff.