9 replies to this topic

[dan fahy]

what are the different stages of drawings that you could offer to a client? what specifically do working drawings include and how do they differ from more specific drawings that would follow or initial drawing that would come before.  any contracts related to the above?

thanks

[Keith Almond]

A lot depends on who the client is - and in most cases what they are willing to pay for.

 

The drawings are basically a tool to enable "Someone" to construct a building.

 

If you're working for a builder, he may just want drawings to apply for a permit. He knows what he wants to build, how he's going to build it, and what he's going to finish it with? So he doesn't need to pay for a lot of extra drawings or details that he probably won't look at.

 

If you're working for a private individual, then they could want anything from permit drawings to a complete set a drawings including interior elevations of EVERY wall, and specifications to cover every piece of the construction down to the last screw - although unlikely, it is possible. 

 

Working drawings cover anything that isn't sketch design. Sketch designs are basically concept drawings that are enough to show the customer what his dream home (or structure) is going to look like, but not how it's going to be built.

 

If you are only providing a drawing service, most customers - and this is a great generalization - just want to pay enough to get them a building permit and they will handle the rest themselves. In most cases the more time and effort you put into the drawings, the more money you can save the customer on site due to unforeseen items. As far as I'm concerned, the better the drawings, the better/smoother the building process will be, and the happier the customer will be in the end.

[PAUL LADNER]

I've been using the term "Working Drawings" up to now, but I'm beginning to feel it is not an adequate term.  It used to be exactly as you described it, Keith, just enough to allow a builder to do what he wants to do - and that is what our building departments used to accept for permits.

 

Now the permit requirements are much more extensive (at least here in the SF Bay Area, anyway):  We need a shearwall plan with holdown & bolting details; load path sections; foundation details; the full Title 24 report; electrical plan; deck structural details for lateral loads & post attachments; Truss plans with engineering; relatively detailed exterior elevations to satisfy the local planning department, plus a site plan that includes large trees that may be impacted by construction - and some more stuff that I can't think of right now.  The plan requirements have gotten so extensive that some building departments have to contract out the plan check review because they don't have the personnel during certain seasons - or there is a minimum 8 week wait until they get to it.

 

So in my proposals I make a distinction between "working drawings" which are detailed enough to get reliable construction bids (includes preliminary structural details plus mechanical plans), and "Permit Plans" which include all the Title 24 report and the Structural Engineer's documentation.  In my pricing I provide an estimate through the working drawings, but charge by the hour to usher it through the Planning & Building departments until final permit approval.  It is almost inevitable that Planning or Building will want additional drawings, changes or documentation of one sort or another.

[randolph cohn]

dan and paul:  (was taught in the architectural college I attended.)

 

five-phases-of-the-architectural-design-process - link below

 

http://dbsem.com/the...design-process/

 

 

 

paul,

you bring up a good point about doing "construction documents" (replaced the word "working drawings" over the years) in the bay area.

many still refer to the drawings as "construction drawings".  no big deal what you call them.

 

in the past it sometimes was difficult going thru the permit process but not even close to what it's become.

 

most communities in marin county (north bay area)  "OUTSOURCE" 

the plans to san diego.

this we have no control over and they'll always add additional time to the process than if it were done in house.

why you ask ?  because they get paid for the time they put into plan checking as does the community.

almost like a "double charge" or maybe it's more like a 1.5 times charge - the client pays and I never ask the cost of permits.

[Mike Downing]

I agree with Randy and Paul.

 

California is indeed a whole different animal. As I've said here, before, they almost want you to put the entire code right onto the plans. There is no such thing as a simple set of documents.

 

Most every set of plans I've done recently have been farmed out for plan check to an outside agency.

 

That being said, I also, have the clients pay the permit fees but in addition I have a sit-down discussion with the clients before I start a project to inform them that the State requirements are not cheap these days. It adds a lot of cost to construction and I want them to go into this with their eyes wide open. 

[randolph cohn]

someone from California mentioned recently that they charge a set fee up until the construction document phase

and than by the hour after they submit the documents for permit.

reason as stated:  you never know how long it'll take once documents are submitted.

 

we now blame the permit phase and the time it takes to get the permits on "THEIR" county.

[Thomas Roman]

Best document I have ever seen regarding stages of a project / scope of services ... attached as JPEG..

 

also, link to the source, page 16: http://www.mbarchite...vicefees(e).pdf

Attached Thumbnails

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[randolph cohn]

well that certainly is complete

[Jim Crook]

I've been using the term "Working Drawings" up to now, but I'm beginning to feel it is not an adequate term.  It used to be exactly as you described it, Keith, just enough to allow a builder to do what he wants to do - and that is what our building departments used to accept for permits.

 

Now the permit requirements are much more extensive (at least here in the SF Bay Area, anyway):  We need a shearwall plan with holdown & bolting details; load path sections; foundation details; the full Title 24 report; electrical plan; deck structural details for lateral loads & post attachments; Truss plans with engineering; relatively detailed exterior elevations to satisfy the local planning department, plus a site plan that includes large trees that may be impacted by construction - and some more stuff that I can't think of right now.  The plan requirements have gotten so extensive that some building departments have to contract out the plan check review because they don't have the personnel during certain seasons - or there is a minimum 8 week wait until they get to it.

 

So in my proposals I make a distinction between "working drawings" which are detailed enough to get reliable construction bids (includes preliminary structural details plus mechanical plans), and "Permit Plans" which include all the Title 24 report and the Structural Engineer's documentation.  In my pricing I provide an estimate through the working drawings, but charge by the hour to usher it through the Planning & Building departments until final permit approval.  It is almost inevitable that Planning or Building will want additional drawings, changes or documentation of one sort or another.

Paul, I'm located in Canada so am not familiar with what a full Title 24 Report is ?

JimC

[dan fahy]

are there any stock contracts that mirror the different stages of drawings ?