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Rounded roof dormers


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#1 brian praye

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 12:55 PM

OK class, does anyone have any info on how do draw a (doghouse?) dormer with a rounded roof, where the roof turns concave as it dies into main roof, and follows the dormer all the way down?  Am using v14, and I have included a pic.

If it can't be done with roof commands, the only thing that I can think of is to create a 3d solid, then give it a texture, and try to slope and position it close.  I could then leave it square on the plans, and let the framers use the illustration to create it in the field, as it were.

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  • dormer exterior.jpg


#2 Keith Almond

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 01:44 PM

Add a gable dormer. Edit the roof edge ROOF PLANE on the hip sides from HIP to PROFILE, then under ROOF PROFILE NAME change the profile to CONVEX, and adjust height and width to suit. Adjust heights to suit. May need a little bit of playing.

 

If you want to do a profile like the one shown above, then create a suitable profile curve to suit and save it as a ROOF PROFILE.

 

2016.10.26_16h09m56s_001.png

 

Sorry, just reread your post ... this isn't quite what you meant is it. However, try starting with a shed roof and experiment ... however, the procedure should be the same. If I get a few minutes tonight, I'll see what I can come up with.

 

Well ... Sorry but as soon as the profile is added to the sides, then the roof loses it's back to front slope. This looks like the best I can do at the moment.

 

2016.10.26_17h08m30s_001.png

 

Randy ... Help!!

 

Can anyone come up with anything better, without resorting to 3D solids ... or even BY resorting to 3D solids.


Keith

There are 10 types of people in this world ....... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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#3 brian praye

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 02:40 PM

Yeah, I should have mentioned that I had already tried the profile method, but the trick is making it a shed roof that angles up to the ridge, or near to it.  I didn't want to resort to trying a solids structure until I knew that there wasn't a roof command method that I wasn't aware of.  If Randy can't do it, I fear that there isn't a way ;)  If I try making a solid, I will post result.  I imagine that it will be representative, but not something that will look great in 3d.



#4 Keith Almond

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 07:25 PM

I haven't given up hope yet Brian. There is another hope, but I haven't got time to try it at the moment. Maybe you can give it a go. Using the profile method as standard as "we" are aware, gives a flat ridge profile ... yes?

 

Well there is an earlier tread that shows how to angle a ridge by using flat beams at angles to control the width of the roof and therefore the height of the ridge (see this post), but angle the beams out instead of in ... to heck with it! Back in a minute ... let me get a Softplan key ... I have to try this.


Keith

There are 10 types of people in this world ....... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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www.homehardwarekingston.ca

#5 Keith Almond

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 08:31 PM

Okay, that didn't work either, but have a look at this ... Good enough?

 

2016.10.27_22h26m29s_001_.png

 

Although not perfect (not even close) it looks quite good to me, and as a proof of concept it does work.

 

Create the standard "S" profile roof as per the second post, and add roof planes like this ...

 

2016.10.27_22h26m51s_002_.png

 

You can experiment with more roof planes, but my computer kept crashing with too many planes. However, if you don't look too closely it may pass inspection.

 

You can obviously adjust the angles on the edges, by adjusting the width of the centre plane at the top.

 

Let me know what you think.


Keith

There are 10 types of people in this world ....... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Softplan user since version 5.5.2.5

www.homehardwarekingston.ca

#6 brian praye

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 12:07 PM

We are getting closer. I will try that out today. I worked with solids yesterday and got nowhere.  This may be a case where I draw it conventionally  with a square configuration for loads and dimensions, then maybe just include the photo that I have for the contractor to use to create the profile onsite. I will keep at it, and thanks everyone for the help.



#7 brian praye

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Posted 30 October 2016 - 04:46 PM

Okay, that didn't work either, but have a look at this ... Good enough?

 

attachicon.gif2016.10.27_22h26m29s_001_.png

 

Although not perfect (not even close) it looks quite good to me, and as a proof of concept it does work.

 

Create the standard "S" profile roof as per the second post, and add roof planes like this ...

 

attachicon.gif2016.10.27_22h26m51s_002_.png

 

You can experiment with more roof planes, but my computer kept crashing with too many planes. However, if you don't look too closely it may pass inspection.

 

You can obviously adjust the angles on the edges, by adjusting the width of the centre plane at the top.

 

Let me know what you think.

Keith, that actually looks great, but I can't seem to duplicate that "S" profile in version 14.  Which version are you using?



#8 Keith Almond

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 06:27 AM

2016, but I don't see any reason why you can't make your own. I think 2014 still had that ability. If you draw the profile that you require, can't you save it as a roof profile under FILE > SYSTEM OPTIONS > SYSTEM LIBRARY > ROOF PROFILES > ROOF PROFILES


Keith

There are 10 types of people in this world ....... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Softplan user since version 5.5.2.5

www.homehardwarekingston.ca

#9 brian praye

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 06:15 PM

I made a nice S curve for a profile, but when I apply it to an edge, it is composed of 3 straight lines, instead of a nice curve.  Also, how did you get it to die into the lower roof?  Mine just extends out on a level line.  thanks.



#10 Keith Almond

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 07:24 PM

Not sure why it's three lines ... try making it bigger ... say 6' x 6'. Alternately, actually draw exactly what you want to see on elevation (from the edge to the middle) and use that as the profile.

 

Mine dies into the roof because I reduced the wall height in 1/8" increments until it did ... you can also adjust the heel heights or the overhangs until it gives the same effect. I had an advantage in that I didn't have any preconceived dimensions to adhere to.


Keith

There are 10 types of people in this world ....... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Softplan user since version 5.5.2.5

www.homehardwarekingston.ca

#11 brian praye

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 05:15 PM

Thanks for the tip.  I had a nice curve, but it was so small (1'x3') that it turned my curve into 3 straight lines. You are correct that the the trick is to make the profile curve a lot larger and close to the actual dormer dimensions.  I very much appreciate the help.



#12 brian praye

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:33 PM

My attempt so far.  Am still trying to determine proper dimensions of walls and windows, with underlying structure, and floor plan. From that picture.  Not there yet, but working on the drawing procedure and construction method.round shed dormer jpeg.jpg dormer framing beams jpeg.jpg



#13 Keith Almond

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 07:18 AM

Looks pretty good Brian.


Keith

There are 10 types of people in this world ....... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Softplan user since version 5.5.2.5

www.homehardwarekingston.ca

#14 randolph cohn

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 12:12 PM

way to go brian,

 

you'll probably never have a more complicated roof / dormer than that.

 

what's the chance of you doing a "step-by-step"  on the procedure ?

 

rpcdesign@aol.com

 

415.819.2646


randy

v10 to future 2016+ ;)


#15 Keith Almond

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 12:26 PM

Randy, See also post #5 above


Keith

There are 10 types of people in this world ....... Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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#16 randolph cohn

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 05:07 PM

I saw that keith but just in case brian had more detailed info on the procedure

and he felt like sharing with us,

 

you have to remember when rom roman was teaching me how to use v10

about 20 years ago,

(i had been on the board during my 5 years in architectural college and many years

after on the board -) 

he had me reading the manual and doing

the lessons daily and he'd come up to my place 1-2 times a month

and go over all my "MANY" questions.

 

i was both a beginner on the computer and with cad so tom had me going

very slow at first or he said i'd probably to something drastic.

learning both cad and the computer at the same time was tough.


randy

v10 to future 2016+ ;)


#17 brian praye

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 11:16 AM

way to go brian,

 

you'll probably never have a more complicated roof / dormer than that.

 

what's the chance of you doing a "step-by-step"  on the procedure ?

 

rpcdesign@aol.com

 

415.819.2646

Thanks.  I am still working on some procedure, but have learned a lot.  Will try to post something soon.



#18 randolph cohn

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 12:44 PM

atta boy brian,

 

I really love the looks of this dormer,

 

does IT have a name ?

 

if not, lets give it a name.


randy

v10 to future 2016+ ;)


#19 brian praye

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 09:24 PM

The names I have so far are not family viewing hour worthy, so open to suggestions.  I will work on a tutorial, but for now this is what I have.  There is a lot to cover, and some revealing facts about roofs. 

a front right view.jpg

 

 



#20 brian praye

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 07:42 PM

First, thanks to Keith for putting me on to the method used in his posts responding to my original cry for help.  I had never used roof planes before, or roof edge profile for that matter, so I had to mess around with them a bit just to get the basics. I made his comment "may need a little bit of playing" the understatement of the year, for this particular project and here is why.

Let me set the table for anyone who wants to play along.  "Eccentric" client gives me the photo of the house in post #1, and says "I want THAT house on the outside, with some changes to the floor plan within. The basic structure is a basic rectangle, gable end roof, with a perpendicular rectangular structure intersecting on each side.  The right side changes from garage to living room with vaulted ceiling.  The left side becomes garage with living space above, and all dormers to be as exact as possible to photo, and back-to-back. (#85 snow load, btw.) So for me, step #1 meant figuring out main roof pitch, and also size of windows in the photo, as everything begins with them.  I came up with a 14/12 pitch on main structures, (dormer pitches tbd) and windows are (2) 3'6" x 3'0" window units with 3 sections.  Think I am close?

 

Step #2 is to draw the dormer and place the windows, so that I can work out the roof structure support.  When I first looked at the photo, I planned on drawing a simple shed dormer, square edges inside and out, and then overbuilding the curves on top of that, which would work and be the least expensive method, but if you look close, that is not how those were built.  There are 5 beam ends overhanging, looks like 1 ft.  One in the center, (high point) one at outside edge of window each side, and one midway between them. From what I could see in the photo, my best guess was a 1' difference in elevation from outside to inside, instead of a flat section in the middle, like in my first attempt, and that is what made the roof edge profile method so #$#*@ difficult. Further explanation to come. The difference can be seen here.Fig 0 Roof Framing.jpg   The NW dormer has that flat center section, while the others have the slight peak in the center.

My final decision is to build the dormer roof using those beams, with intermediate rafters that will actually form the curve, with a "built on roof" wall forming the edge for the inside view of sidewalls.  The exterior curve outside of the sidewalls will be overbuild on main roof using hand crafted site-built rafters with curve cut in.  Pity the framer.

 

Before I continue, a few tips.  I very much design in 3d mode, after all, why not?  Warning:  crunching a lot of data by the time you get very far, so your computer will at some point choke.  You need a fast processor with lots of ram, and even then expect problems.  As I got to the end, when I would click on a tool in the toolbar, it would switch to "measure distance" no matter which tool I had picked.  At that point, I would hit save, and shut down softplan to cool down and reboot.

Also, roofs in general can be very complex, and it is critical to be as precise as possible with every thing that you draw.  It is vital that every reference point actually reference the correct part. Even then, on many occasions, I would make and adjustment to one edge of the dormer, like "heel height" and get a different result when entering the exact same info to the other edge. That makes it impossible to know whether you have made a mistake, or whether the program has gotten confused.  Remember, we are creating a close facsimile of a shed roof with compound curved edges using tools available, which are not able to do it with 1 click.

In the "more than one way to skin a cat" scenario, (sharp eyes will have already noticed the SE dormer in fig 0) you can be working on a different type roof and achieve similar results, but the actual process my be slightly different. The key is to check the result of every click before proceeding, as you get more comfortable with the process.

 

Step 1: build main structure walls  20'x24' in this case, (2x6 plate in this case since it is a first floor vaulted roof). Go into drawing options, set roof pitch to 14", rafter size to 11.875", and heel height to 12".  Trace roof, edit ends to gable, plain gable corners, no soffit, auto stick frame.  Generate a 3d textured image.  Go to materials and uncheck whatever roof material you have so you can see the framing.

Sadly, dinner is ready, so I will continue this later, where we will actually get to drawing.






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