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Wall Definition Question


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#1 Richard Taylor

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 07:10 AM

So this came about during a discussion with SP techs about a related issue, I'm curious how others in the SP community handle it, or maybe I'm missing something somewhere!

 

Starting with the premise that in my wall sections, the face of the structural sheathing in the framed wall above aligns with the face of the foundation wall below - 

 

In SP, my foundation wall section has the outside face of the concrete wall ticked as "bearing".  My framed wall section has the outside face of the sheathing ticked as bearing, that way the bearing faces of both walls align as they should.

 

But, in the roof mode, in the little vignette in the lower left corner of the screen, only the bearing material in the wall section shows - so I get a fairly useless vignette showing the rafter, and only sheathing below, no stud, no plates, no bird's mouth.

 

The solution is obviously making the stud bearing in the wall definition, not the sheathing. But that's where the problem occurs - when I copy the first floor plan, then convert the walls to foundation walls, the options only allow aligning the bearing materials, or the outside of the wall, not aligning the foundation bearing surface to the "non-bearing" sheathing above.

 

Does this make sense? What am I missing?



#2 Keith Almond

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 07:21 AM

You can make MORE THAN ONE material in a wall bearing ...

 

Like you, I used to use the sheathing as bearing (and the studs and plates) ... especially for calculating areas, but that had other drawbacks, as it really screwed up the floors. Since 2014, I've changed this to only show the framing as bearing.

 

Can't help with the copy and convert issues. I NEVER copy plans from floor to floor. I ALWAYS use overlay and draw new walls. That way I'm certain that wall heights and positions are what I want.

 

"the premise that in my wall sections, the face of the structural sheathing in the framed wall above aligns with the face of the foundation wall below" - I've ALWAYS used this as a premise and still do, but talking with a lot of framers, it seem's that MOST of them ignore this premise, and put the outside of the framing in line with the foundation, and then add the sheathing outside that. What's the general consensus amongst designers about this?


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#3 D M

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 07:35 AM

I've always aligned the stud face with the foundation, .. exterior sheathing then added to mask the floor assembly for exterior surface continuity

 

..or , more often wall sheathed with sheathing dropped down the floor depth which laps the joists when the wall is stood up

 

This is the convention around here, ..


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#4 Yvon Gonthier

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 07:36 AM

We generally line up the exterior of the sheathing with the foundation. Now, that will fluctuate a bit in reality because the foundations walls are almost never perfectly straight so you might end up with a section that lines up and another that in beyond. 

 

It probably didn't use to line up as much as framers probably had a hard time positioning the framing 1/2" away but we have been using for the last 3 to 4 years sheathing panels that have rigid indulation attached to it so the set back in larger and easier to set.



#5 Richard Taylor

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 07:44 AM

Around here the sheathing is always flush. In my wall sections, I do have the sheathing and stud marked as bearing, but the vignette only shows the outermost bearing material.



#6 Martin Livingston

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 08:02 AM

Using the circle reference point on each floor plan will override all of your bearing surfaces so that the materials line up the way you intended


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#7 Keith Almond

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 08:34 AM

Which Softplan version are we talking about here?


Keith

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#8 Richard Taylor

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 08:44 AM

2016



#9 Kevin Rabenaldt

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 08:47 AM

I have always placed the stud to the foundation edge.  And that is how I have seen it practice and in the details I have found from various sources.  For those that put the sheathing to the edge of the foundation can you tell me the reason?  

 

It is interesting how different parts of the country do things.  For instance, in 1994 I attended Softplan training in Dallas.  We explained in class how we step down the concrete garage floor.  The SP instructor had never seen this.  It would certainly make the most sense in snow country where the car comes in with snow and then melts and has a way to exit the garage via the garage doors to drain out.  In Texas we are not snow country but a garage step down is done everywhere.  My parents house built in 1968 and was done that way so it is a standard for a long time. 



#10 Richard Taylor

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 09:17 AM

Framers build the wall on the flat, including the sheathing, then tilt it up onto the plate. Sort of snaps right into place if the plate is offset 1/2".  Also eliminates exposing the underside of the sheathing, and allows the drainage plane to overlap the foundation. All that, and "that's just the way they've always done it".  :P



#11 Keith Almond

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 09:48 AM

... We explained in class how we step down the concrete garage floor ...  

 

Step down from where? What? Can you explain more?


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#12 Keith Almond

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 09:53 AM

Framers build the wall on the flat, including the sheathing, then tilt it up onto the plate. Sort of snaps right into place if the plate is offset 1/2".  Also eliminates exposing the underside of the sheathing, and allows the drainage plane to overlap the foundation. All that, and "that's just the way they've always done it".  :P

 

Really! How do you take the sheathing down to the top of the foundation doing it that way? We normally see the houses framed and then sheathed.


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#13 Kevin Rabenaldt

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 10:13 AM

Keith I will post a picture sometime.  You have the main slab height of the house.  The garage walls foundation slab height matches the main house.  Around 5-1/2 inches away from the foundation edge the height steps down about 3-1/2 inches.  The back wall of the garage the step down does not occur until about 2-3 feet from the foundation edge from the back wall (depends on garage depth and the room you have there) and this creates a bumper for the front wheels to hit.  We also try to have the area by the garage entry door into the house the same height so typically the garage entry door to the house is at slab height and door placement is located at the front area of the car.  From the bumper to the garage doors the floor slopes so any water will drain out.  It is also easy to wash out the garage floor.  No water ever hits the bottom plate.  Another detail is the garage door framing bucks.  The bottom is cut at an angle (30 to 45 degrees) so that the painter can paint the bottom and keeps the bottom edge from wicking water/moisture..

 

Richard, I thought the purpose of the sheathing not underneath the footing (concrete mostly here), prevented moisture building up because any moisture that penetrates the siding/brick/stone, etc air space will "drip" off the sheathing at the bottom.  If the sheathing is flush with edge of the foundation then the moisture that collects at  the bottom will stay there and eventually rot out the bottom of the sheathing.



#14 Richard Taylor

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 10:49 AM

Small gap between the bottom of the sheathing and the top of the foundation wall. Moisture barrier or drainage plane laps over onto the foundation. In 30 year I've never heard of a problem with wicking.



#15 Tom Rogers

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 03:37 PM

I have framed in both Illinois and Georgia, along with my builders that I do work for in Indiana and Texas.  I do it the same way (both walls and garage slab)  that Kevin does it.  


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#16 Richard VanEk

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 06:52 AM

We build our wall on the flat and sheet from the top down.  Almost all our wall sheathing is osb.  If the main floor walls are 9' we will finished the wall sheathing with 2' pieces covering the box, if 8' walls we will overhang the sheathing 12" + on the bottom  to cover the box and finished whats left on top.  Sometimes we use 9' sheathing if available.  This method help prevent what we call wall lift?? 



#17 Guest_Derrik Bauer_*

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 03:46 PM

I must be somewhere in the middle....    I frequently get asked how I want the house laid out from the framers.  They have often done it both ways depending on the customer's preference.  If given the option I prefer having the sheathing flush with the foundation.  This is especially true when using ZipSystem with Foam (Which I often use).  As added protection I add a flashing under the Zip-foam and above the foundation.

 

As far as SoftPlan is concerned, I make the foam and sheathing "Bearing" in my wall definition.  This seems to create the least amount of issues for me.



#18 Mike Feinstein

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 06:44 AM

I've framed in IL, IN, and Michigan and frame as Richard, with continuous sheathing covering the rim...fill in the top. This affords an excellent way to tie the walls to the floor structure. We aim to hold sill plates the sheathing thickness inside of the outside of the foundation (I hope that makes sense). This flushes the sheathing to the foundation. Holding it up some allows for caulking sheathing to the foundation thus sealing. What the procedure for drawing is...I have no clue.


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#19 Josh Friesen

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 08:17 AM

I've framed and designed exclusively in Manitoba. I've found for a few reasons that i like overlapping plywood onto ICF basements. 

1) As mentioned above it creates a positive lap drainage plane. 

2) Ties the wall assembly to the foundation, and in my paranoid mind that increases the strength. 

3) I've yet to see a concrete worker work to closer than 1/4", often worse. That means i know there will be some difference between the square floor and the bowed walls, overlapping sheeting onto basement walls helps mitigate. 

4) Major benefit for air penetration to have plywood overlap your floor to basement connection. We try designing as eco-friendly as possible and noticed a dramatic benefit to overlapping plywood over mud-sill/joist/basement wall connection. 

Just my two cents (up here pennies don't exist, so perhaps my thoughts don't count for much either...)



#20 Daniel Zanoli

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Posted 26 April 2017 - 08:39 AM

If you overlap the osb onto the foundation you can see the bottom of the sheathing. (open to the elements and insects). I dont think its against code either way here.

I prefer flush. I pull all my dimensions from stud to stud. The 7/16" plywood is nailed on after you build the wall. You tack your plates together then layout your wall. No 7/16" plywood on the deck till the wall is built. Then nail it on and stand it up. Interior walls are stud to stud, no drywall out there either. We have the best drawing tool in the world...you shouldnt have to minus or add out in the field.  That print is to build. Its raining, the bugs are biteing, lumberboy didnt come in today (again), the winds blowing and not one interior dimension is real.... come on now.. theres no brick theres no drywall outhere. Give me the real number..






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